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Tuesday, 16 August 1994
 
The Council met at 2.30 p.m. in Parliamentary House, Kampala.
 
PRAYERS
 
The Vice-Chairman, Mr Joseph Ekemu, in the Chair.
 
The Council was called to order.
 
COMMUNICATION FROM THE CHAIR
 
THE CHAIRMAN: It is with regret that I now officially inform you of the death of the hon. Deputy Minister for Finance hon. Kafumbe Mukasa who died last Saturday and was buried on Sunday at his home in Butambala. I now ask you to stand up and observe a minutes silence.
 
MOTION FOR A RESOLUTION
 
THE MINISTER FOR FINANCE AND ECONOMIC PLANNING (Mr Mayanja Nkangi): Mr Chairman and hon. Members it is with the deepest personal sorrow that I rise to move this Motion and yet I do so with great honour. Be it resolved that the National Resistance Council duly convened and sitting in Kampala on this 16th day of August in the year 1994, that the Council notes with grief the sudden demise of hon. Abbey Kafumbe Mukasa which occurred on the 12th August 1994, and the Council further takes cognisance of the distinguished service he rendered to this Parliament and the nation at large as a public servant, businessman, politician and especially, as a Deputy Minister for Finance and Economic Planning, a very competent and trusted personal lieutenant so to speak.
 
As far as his performance of his official duties was concerned, a friend, an accomplished debater and Parliamentarian, a diligent and contentious servant and an energetic politician. The late hon. Kafumbe Mukasa was only a few days ago actively conducting Parliamentary business in this Chamber. Now he lives beyond the reach of mankind, beyond the reach of us all his Colleagues, his countrymen, his friends. Death has robbed my Ministry, this National Resistance Council I make bold to assert and the country at large of a tested democrat and an outstanding nationalist. It is a grievous loss more so at this moment in our countrys history when we are considering vital constitutional changes, which are designed to promote the political and socio-economic progress of our country. If any death is ever untimely, we have witness to one, the death of hon. Kafumbe Mukasa.
 
The late Kafumbe Mukasa was not only a first grade Parliamentarian, but a man who could blend the fine elements of civil service, politics and international statesmanship. He was responsible for selling so to speak and defending Ugandas image abroad in such fora as European Union and African, Caribbean Pacific countries, in PTA Bank, in Islamic Development Bank always representing me as Governor of that Bank and many other Pan-African Organisations of which Uganda is a member.
 
He was a man of the people with a sense of humour. You will recall hon. Members that in 1980, he was elected by the people of Butambala County to represent them in this Parliament. I do not mean in this particular one but in Parliament. He was elected on a Democratic Party ticket. Ever since his political acumen, he continued to grow by lips and bounds. When the resistance struggle was on, hon. Kafumbe Mukasa as any Members of Democratic Party, hon. Kafumbe Mukasa was one of those people who conducted the political resistance in this very House, conducting it against repression and pretensions of the Obote II regime. In 1986 when peace was restored the authorities were quick to recognise the potential of this brave man and he was accordingly nominated by His Excellency the President to this House. He was later appointed Deputy Minister for Finance. He has discharged the functions of his office with distinction and great success and I am lucky to live to testify to it.
 
You will all very well know that our late colleague in this House was a very distinguished sports administrator having served the highest office of the National Council of Sports. The Business Community will greatly miss one of their prominent members. The late hon. Kafumbe Mukasa was one of this countrys leading clothiers. It is important to note that many private roles he played will not in any way get in the way or get confused with his official functions. He was respected; so he has always respected the call of duty as against private personal interest.
 
I could go on of course to explain the good things, which our hon. colleague did for this country. But I know that each one of you have his or her clear view and assessment of our hon. Friend. Let it suffice for me to say that I have lost a great fellow worker at the Ministry and that the Ministry of Finance and Economic Planning continues to feel a shock of his passing away and I must confess that I was momentarily dazed by the news of the death of our hon. colleague. But I have to steal myself, my nerves and decided to adopt the attitude of a famous French Marshal Force during the first world war, who when faced with a great operational problem at the battle field, he acted as follows: my centre is yielding, my right is withdrawing, situation excellent. I shall attack. Mr Chairman, we shall attack. I beg to move. (Applause)
 
MR MANZI TUMUBWEINE (Rukiga County): Thank you, Mr Chairman, for allowing me to second this Motion in appreciation and recognition of the work done by our Colleague late hon. Abbey Kafumbe Mukasa. Mr Chairman, hon. Abbey Kafumbe Mukasa who was known to me from 1969 -(Interruption)
 
MR BUTAGIRA: Point of clarification. According to the Order Paper, I see this Motion being seconded by hon. Kagonyera Mondo, Member for Rubabo, who is present, I do not know whether he is still supporting this Motion or it is just open to debate to anybody; he is there, I do not know - (Interruption)
 
THE CHAIRMAN: I have taken recognition of that and I am aware of that, hon. Manzi, please, proceed.
 
MR TUMUBWEINE: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Hon. Kafumbe Mukasa was a good Debtor and at the University we recognised that, when we were Members of the Economic Association; he was a very brilliant student and he was a social and good student. His debating capacity has been seen in the last 14 years that he has been in this House and indeed some of us used to call a financial wizard in the Ministry of Finance and have no doubt in mind that he knew what he was doing and I am sure the whole of the Ministry of Finance is feeling a very big sense of loss of hon. Kafumbe Mukasa. Hon. Kafumbe Mukasa was a dedicated worker, some of us who used to go to his office, he would be there very late and would come very early and he never got tired.
 
Socially, if you met him, he was a good man and you can only tell by seeing what happened in Kampala when everybody knew even the first rumour that Kafumbe had died on the Friday. This country has lost a committed citizen, Mr Chairman.
 
This country has lost a dedicated Minister. I worked very closely with closely with hon. Kafumbe Mukasa when we were reviving the National Lottery Board and the IDA was to look for sources of funds to help our Budget. It was time consuming, it was long and finally we did it. It is with great sense of sadness that when we present the first cheque on which he would have been the man to see it being presented to the Minister for Finance, that is the time when he was in the hospital and indeed, when I saw him on that Thursday, he said do not forget to present the cheque tomorrow; because it was presented on Friday in the morning and I said, I will not forget. When I saw him on Thursday, I thought he would be alright because he was able to remember all things that he was supposed to do the following day, not knowing what was coming next.
 
Hon. Kafumbe Mukasa had done a duty to this country and it is therefore, fitting that wee should recognise and appreciate his performance and actions to this nation; he was a nationalist, he was a good politician, he was a good student, hon. Kafumbe will be remembered for all the good things that he has done and the best we can do is to emulate what he has done and actually make his name live through our actions. May his Soul rest in eternal peace. (Applause)
 
MR KAWANGA (Masaka Municipality, Masaka): Thank you very much, Mr Chairman. I first got to know hon. Kafumbe Mukasa in 1979, when both of us as very young men started our political career in the Democratic Party. Hon. Kafumbe Mukasa has had very many qualities; all of them wonderful, but I think I will stress just one and that is, one of political maturity and political courage. Hon. Kafumbe Mukasa stood in what was known then as Mpigi Central Constituency in 1980, but he was so harassed during the campaign, that actually he did not vote in that election; he had to go into hiding because he was being hunted, possible to be killed before the election took.
 
So, he only learnt that he had won and came out of hiding after the results had been announced. In spite of that he came to this House undeterred and spoke with courage on every issue that mattered, but even while here, the Chairman of UPC Constituency in his constituency was killed when he was a Member of this Parliament and I think he felt it his duty to go at that funeral; but he knew that he was facing danger and indeed at that funeral, even before it was finished, he was picked from there, wrapped up, put on a lorry and driven to Masaka Barracks being beaten all the way up to the barracks where he was detained for several days and it required a lot activity on our part to get him eventually released from there.
 
Immediately he got released, with his wounds still on his back, he came back to this House and I remember him standing in front here speaking across with a lot of anger, in fact, he was addressing the then Vice President of this Country and accusing him directly; that he must have been responsible for his arrest, but confirming that if he though he was going to go into exile, he was mistaken, he was not going to go into exile, he was going to stand here and defend the cause of justice and he did exactly that for five years. But the harassment did not stop there, they burnt his shop which had just started in Kampala, loosing a lot of property which had been involved in that shop. Kafumbe continued to stand here and defend the cause of justice, the cause of human rights. The quality of political courage is one of the biggest attributes that we need most in this country; not many of us have it. Kafumbe had it in plenty in addition to the other attributes. May his soul rest in eternal peace.
 
PROF. MONDO KAGONYERA (Rubabo County, Rukungiri): Thank you, Mr Chairman. It is not an easy thing to make observations on an occasion like this. I want Mr Chairman to bear with me, I came in this House late, because I am just in the middle of arranging precisely what we did for Abbey Kafumbe Mukasa a few days ago. It was not my intention to com late, but it is difficult not to say something about Abbey Kafumbe Mukasa. This is a man I met in the early 70s when he was a very young man and we struck friendship almost instantaneously - we struck friendship almost instantly. Of course I knew Kafumbe Mukasa was a Muganda, because he was unlikely to be any thing else, because of his name, but I never knew what Kafumbe Mukasas religion was.
 
Now, in Statement, therefore, allow me to say one thing about Abbey that has been very unfortunate and especially that is happened towards the end of his life in this world. During the last elections, I do not know what happened, but Abbey was labelled tribalist, I think personally, the most unfortunate label anybody could put on a person like Abbey. Abbey Kafumbe Mukasa possessed no sectarianism of any sort; neither tribal nor religious. I am neither a Muganda nor am I a Moslem, but we got on along perfectly well. Therefore, I would like this country and the world to know that, that label on Abbey Kafumbe Mukasa was the most unfortunate thing that could happen to anybody and therefore we will be doing a great favour in this House to recognise that. I am sure even one of his opponents in the last election who happens to sit with us, in this House can attest to this.
 
Secondly, I would like also to add, that what I read in the Papers was a little bit unfortunate regarding the cause of Abbeys death. It seems like, we Bakiga say, nobody ever dies without being poisoned. that is, if there never was poison in the world, we would never die of malaria, we would never die of pneumonia, nor would we die of cholera. I think the country and everybody else has the right to know that really Abbey Kafumbe Mukasas death was caused by a natural disease.
 
Hon. Kawanga has spoken about Abbey Kafumbe Mukasas courage; that is exactly one thing I wanted to say about this man. It is very difficult to find a person who mixes skill, personality, political balance and above all, courage. This man was so courageous, when I first came back to Uganda, we were going through fairly difficult times even in Kampala here, Abbey Kafumbe Mukasa was a Minister but that man used to drive his car around alone by himself and one of the things I asked Abbey, I said my friend, do you not know what is happening about you? Kafumbe Mukasa laughed at me. Why, because he was protected by his courage and it is important that leaders be courageous, that is why they will not use cannon fire to kill flies.
 
In this country, quite often, I think we have been badly led because leaders are not courageous to face problems squarely. He told me of a story, I do not know whether hon. Kawanga knows about it; when he was in jail in Masaka, some one attempted to kill him, but he did not realise that Kafumbe Mukasa was smarter than this guy and it was this guy who was calling for help, instead of Kafumbe Mukasa calling for it; a very, very, brave man. He was able to handle someone who had a gun until this guy who had a gun was saved by his friends from killing Abbey Kafumbe Mukasa.
 
I cannot talk about his skills at the Ministry of Finance because, I am sure his boss, the Minister has talked plenty about it, but let me make some observations, about Abbey Kafumbe Mukasas performance in the EEC-ACP Committee, because I had the privilege of working with Abbey Kafumbe Mukasa during our discussions in the EEC, ACP meetings. You know, like everyone of us in this House know, that the name of Uganda stands high in the EEC and I do not think besides our President that anybody else has contributed to this more than Abbey Kafumbe Mukasa; with due respect to the Minister for Finance here. (Applause) 
 
Not only did Kafumbe Mukasa engage his colleagues in very good Debate, very frank and honest discussions, but when Uganda got money from EEC as a national authorising officer, he made sure that this country utilised its funds and therefore in the whole of ACP, Uganda does not envy any other country for its ability to utilise funds we get from the EEC. I am hoping that one of the greatest tributes we can pay to Kafumbe Mukasa is to make sure that what he was doing for Uganda continues. Examples of Kafumbe Mukasas achievements. It is only recently that Abbey Kafumbe Mukasa had been elected spokesman for the Ministerial Committee of the African Caribbean Group in the negotiations for a new mode of LOME Four. We are in the midst of what is called the mid-term review of LOME Four and Abbey was chosen among all the Ministers in Africa, in the Caribbean and Pacific to speak on behalf of that group of countries. (Applause)
 
Recently, in Swaziland, he was elected Chief ACP Trade negotiator for the mid-term review; I have just said that. Since 1986, he has been head of Ugandas delegations to the ACP/EEC Joint Assembly and I have already said that our name stands high in that group.
 
I want to end by saying that recently this country had a very, very, big problem that only Kafumbe Mukasa could handle for us regarding the ACP/EEC Group of countries. There was a move to paint Uganda the Demon regarding the unfortunate troubles we have in our neighbouring country Rwanda. But because of his skills, because of his diplomacy, because of his hard work, Uganda was able to be rightly exonerated and the blame squarely put where it belonged.
 
I do not want to dwell too much on this, I can go on for ever and ever talking about Kafumbe Mukasa, but I think his loss is a great loss to this country; but also it should act as an inspiration to the rest of us, that we ought to work as hard and as honestly while we live, because tomorrow, we may be no more. I support, Mr Chairman.
 
REV. ONGORA ATWAI (Lira Municipality, Lira): Thank you, Mr Chairman to also allow me from the North to bring in the same condolence, aware that Kafumbe whose attributes we have heard, knows no boundary. He has been a great Ugandan, African and internationally accepted at all the fora that he attended. My knowledge of the late dates back to 1984, this was the time he went with hon. Yona Kanyomozi, then Minister of Co-operatives, during the Co-operative day that was marked in Lira. I knew him as a nationalist, I knew him as a DP the, that one had no boundary. He would reach out and interact with other people. The loss of this great son of Uganda pains all of us. I have been around in this place for the last five years now at this position I have known the intrinsic qualities that Kafumbe had; among others, soon after debate, he would lobby in the Central Lobby so that should he come the next day, would find him winning more people on to the Motion or Bill that he has tabled.
 
So, the loss of this great Ugandan leaves us with that vacuum, which as hon. Professor has just said, we should aspire to do just that; we should be open, we should be people who can emulate these good deeds of the late. I beg to support.
 
MR WENENDEYA (Budadiri County, Mbale): Thank you very much, Mr Chairman, for giving me the opportunity to contribute to this Motion. I highly support it. I knew hon. Kafumbe Mukasa in 1964 and since then, we have been friends. He was one of Ugandas good nationalists, one of the best.
 
He represented us very effectively and each time we got an opportunity to discuss issues of EEC/ACP, I would give him some advice whenever I would and he would say, yes, this was accepted or whatever, but even if Members used to see us here arguing, it was on principles and later on we would talk and when we met socially, he was one of the best people to socialise and a friend nearly to everybody.
 
The tribute paid by hon. Prof. Kagonyera Mondo and hon. Kawanga are affirmative of what I knew about the late hon. abbey Kafumbe Mukasa. The Badadiri were saddened when I was there about the death of the late Kafumbe Mukasa and they sent their condolences to the widow and this House to say we have lost a friend; they sent their condolences to Members and his family. I could say a lot about him because I knew him personally right from 1964. May Abbeys soul rest in eternal peace until we all meet. I thank you, Mr Chairman.
 
MR KANYOMOZI (Kajara County, Ntungamo): Mr Chairman, I stand here to support the Motion and to express my grief and sadness and the people I represent on the death of a dear friend, a comrade, and a keen debtor in this House. In 1980, we came to this House in Party system and I can remember then I was sitting this Side and Abbey, Ssendawula and the late Mulema on the other Side and Kawanga who has just spoken. I then was on the Front Bench, but before long, we would recognise those people with the talent and ability to look at issues nationally and I think at least on the economic sphere, people like the late Mulema, the late now Kafumbe Mukasa, hon. Ssendawula, were those people who one would see that they had not only the ability to speak, but understood what they were speaking about as far as economics is concerned.
 
It was because of the same reason that those of us who were at least in positions of influence, made sure that, that contribution would not be hidden away from the people of Uganda and we made sure that people like hon. Kafumbe Mukasa, hon. Ssendawula, hon. Mulema, I am only talking about those who were in the economic sphere, he made sure that they were on Boards of organisations that we thought very important, and it was for that reason that Kafumbe Mukasa was on a UDB Board and did perform his level best to give that Bank a balanced view and we did not feel that he was a person of position, but rather, that he knew what he was doing and helped us to get along with the information that was required to make this country a better place to live in.
 
Furthermore, when we have come back here in this House, under this system, he was on the Front Bench, I was not in the Back Bench - the roles had changed. As the Reverend has said, I remember when we first went to celebrate the Co-operative Day, he was one of the people from the opposition who actually accompanied me to Lira and it was my first public performance of having to inspect a guard of Honour at that time. When we have changed the roles, Mr Kafumbe Mukasa, now in my place and me at the back, we had still interacted ass the intelligent beings. I know what he has tried to do for me; try to make me also contribute in the same way that I made him contribute to Boards. Unfortunately, in his case, he did not succeed to get me on the Board but he had come several times - he said, we are going to propose you for this one. Of course, they did propose but you know how things work. (Laughter) I never made it and I was grateful to him because at least he would recognise the same thing as I was recognising him during the time I was on the Front Bench and him at the Back Bench.
 
We have interacted -(Interjection)- Somebody is asking why am I not a member of the Board? I am saying, I have never been a Member of the Board but that is not an issue. What I am saying is that we have interacted while we have been here. I came to understand him as a person who would first push you - what one would call confrontational but underneath really he was not that; I mean when he was talking here, you would feel that he is a man who is going to push you up to the level. Actually, he put his case so strongly but you came to understand him, he would mellow if there was a reasonable reason. I would quote the recent example for our Non-performing Assets. At the beginning I did not think we are going to get anywhere because if anybody knew him - he came and said no list, no list for two or three meetings; but I knew in the end my friend would look at the professional side and he would realise that the nation needed to do this and this. It is that element, which I want the Members of this House to recognise - a man who can even have political difference but still have commonality. (Applause) 
 
One, as a keen debator; two, as a professional; and three as a person who has mankind at heart. I really feel I will miss him in these Front Benches, especially when economic issues do come up. Because to me he was a keen debator; a person, whom I knew I would want to listen to and whom I knew would give us something. It is a pity he has gone at such an age when he would contribute more. But what do we do now that he is gone? The rest of us who are left behind, let us take on the mantle and be able to sustain those contributions that he was giving. For those who have been associated with him in the ministry should carry the same name and the same vigour so that the work he started can continue and in this House I am sure talents and replacements are not gone. Replacements will be there so that the good work the hon. Kafumbe Mukasa did for this country can continue. May his soul rest in eternal peace. (Applause)
 
MR ADYEBO: Mr Chairman and hon. Members, the world is a stage where every man plays a part. Surely, hon. Kafumbe Mukasa played his part in Uganda. Definitely, you have played part in Uganda, in our different capacities. But on behalf of government, the late Kafumbe Mukasa was a connecting road in as far as Government co-operations. He was very committed to the Executive, to his Colleagues in the House, to himself, to the people he represents.
 
Last Sunday but one, when I asked His Excellency, The President to allow me time to go upcountry, I telephoned him because we had just given him an assignment to come with proposals about how we can tackle the transportation problem; about how we can capitalise Uganda Central Purchases and so on and so forth; and he told me, surprisingly that he was sick but his doctor was there in the House attending to him, so I should not worry. But when I heard he died, I had to stop everything else and at least try to pay my last respect before the burial.
 
In this House, had it not been for the late hon. Kafumbe Mukasa - my task would have been much more difficult. It was very easy through him, to pass even difficult Bills. To me, it was very difficult to differentiate whether he was acting as a junior or a Cabinet Minister. His abilities had been enormous. I am personally affected but I would urge you, hon. Members through a big friend, the late hon. Kafumbe Mukasa, to extend the co-operation you gave him when he was with us. In the late hon. Kafumbe Mukasa, we were about four from North, from East, from West, from Central and if many more were to enumerate how he conducted himself, I am sure hon. Members we would have gone a long way to solve our problems in the country. This is a man who was more than a nationalist, and whose professionalism was appreciated and accepted both inside and outside this country by all the nationalists.
 
On behalf of the government I would wish to recommend that in order to appreciate the good things he did for us, we would think of at least taking care of the children of the late hon. Kafumbe Mukasa so that they would reach a reasonable level of education. (Applause)
 
I am saying so because the structural adjustment, the benefits accruing there to, all there from - the achievements we have recorded economically and politically, we find in the centre of them, was the late hon. Kafumbe Mukasa. Let me, therefore, take this opportunity to urge you hon. Members who had co-operated with us, who had understood government during the difficult times, to continue with this attitude so that at the end, you too, have to leave a mark which will be for the enjoyment for our prosperity, just like the late Kafumbe Mukasa did. May his soul rest in eternal peace. (Applause)
 
CAPT. BABU: Mr Chairman, thank you very much. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to pay tribute to a very good Friend of mine and at the same time somebody who contested Kampala Central Division Seat together. Somebody few minutes ago used the word opponent. Me and the Departed decided that we would use the word contestants and for many times, a lot of our differences have been played up by a lot of people but during that campaign, we had a lot of understanding. In fact, for the first time, I would like to say this - that if it was not because of the several meetings that we held; me and the hon. Kafumbe Mukasa - a lot of things could have happened here. But we had meetings several times in the Nile Hotel, in the Sheraton and many other places to try and resolve a lot of problems.
 
I would like to say this; apart from having met him as my contestant during these elections, where did I first meet hon. Kafumbe Mukasa? I first met him any years ago when we were in secondary school. He was at Kibuli Secondary School. I was at Makerere College School. I used to play a lot of games and I was quite a keen debtor in my school; and we met in several parts of debate.
 
In fact, it is very interesting during the elections, he reminded me to an occasion where at Makerere College School we finished a debate and we went for a disco that evening and he reminded a few things that we had done when we were young.
 
Many years later, we met here and during the EEC/ACP Conference we had here, I was appointed as a Member of Parliament to be on a Committee that would arrange the EEC/ACP and I would like to say here that I lost both friends that we worked together. One was His Excellency, Katungi who was an Ambassador then to the EEC/ ACP and the other one was hon. Kafumbe Mukasa the other is still alive; of course, he is a Clerk to this House who gave us a lot of direction. We worked very hard; I was in charge of protocol and training the hostesses and hosts that would work in the EEC/ACP. He was amused, we worked together hand in hand and I think that has been one of the most successful conferences we have ever had in this Country; thanks to hon. Kafumbe Mukasa. (Applause)
 
From there, we continued - we have had our ups and downs in these debates, as we know he was a very good debtor and his prowess is known by all Members of this House. I would like to join those that have said that he probably has been one of the best debaters in this House -(Applause)- and I hope that we will emulate him in that particular aspect. The other one is that when he became my contestant, he did not only combine prowess in debates in the candidates meeting, he also brought humour and during the time when we having candidates meetings, he came up with a red card and a yellow car concept - that if somebody lied, he would get a red card and all his supporters would lift up a red card; and those who were misbehaving would lift a yellow card, so we had a lot of humour during our campaigns.
 
I would like to say this - probably the Kampala Central Division Constituent Assembly Elections, were the most interesting. Most interesting because probably and I sometimes during the weekend - if it was not because of hon. Kafumbe Mukasa, maybe he would never have heard of these elections here. He was very interesting and I would like to say that we had several conferences; in fact we had even arguments; but one of the things that we resolved is that we would make the elections a success and I would like to say another point that we always contributed more or less the same way. We agreed that we need national reconciliation, that we need one country and by the way, we all believed in the Movement and for that I will not forget him.
 
Now, I would like to extend, through you and through all the Members of this House, my sincere condolences - not only to the hon. Members of this House but also to his family and all his friends and to all those who knew him because indeed Mr Chairman, this nation has lost a statesman. Thank you very much.
 
MR KIYONGA: Thank you very much Mr Chairman. In the late hon. Kafumbe Mukasa, I have lost a Brother, and I have lost a comrade. I first met the late hon. Kafumbe Mukasa at the end of 1986 when both himself and myself were assigned to look after this Ministry of Finance. Mr Chairman, hon. Members of the NRC, the years 87 to 89 were very difficult years in the economy of this Country. Difficult years, when we had to carry out very unpopular devaluations, very unpopular economic policies; and times one felt very lonely in taking a decision but every time I had hon. Kafumbe Mukasa on my side urge me on. We worked nights and days with the late hon. Kafumbe Mukasa. He was always ready to sacrifice his time to ensure that this country was being put back on a normal path economically.
 
Many hon. Members have testified to the fact that hon. Kafumbe Mukasa was a nationalist. I would like to say the same but to go beyond and say that the late hon. Kafumbe Mukasa was a pan-Africanist; and I will latter on indicate why I say so. (Applause) 
 
At local level, just to add to what other colleagues have already said - just to prove the point of his being a nationalist. In the county that hon. Prof. Wangusa represents in Mbale, about two years ago, they did some fundraising in which hon. Kafumbe Mukasa and I and other colleagues participated and because of the very significant role that hon. Kafumbe Mukasa played in that part country, Mbale, one of the wards in that Health Centre has already been named after hon. Kafumbe Mukasa. (Applause)
 
When we went to see him on his sick bed last Tuesday with hon. Dr Chebrot, it is true he was improving but still looked very sick and when we were about to leave him, he said he had something to say to Dr Chebrot. He said, my brother I had a commitment tomorrow to go to West Nile to officiate at a project - a micro-project. In case I am not better tomorrow, please do go on my behalf. So sick as he was, nationalist as he was not only can we see his work in Mbale and other areas but, even on his sick bed he thought of West Nile; he thought of making sure that, that project went ahead. Of course, we do not have to repeat his performance in Parliament here regarding national issues.
 
At the International level, as hon. Nkangi has already said, he handled right from 1986 - late 86 EEC matters, matters related to the Islamic Development Bank and matters related to the PTA Bank; and I must say even during my time he did very well at these Conferences at these meetings and, therefore, managed to get lots of money for this country for various projects.
 
I earlier on described him as a Pan-Africanist. You have heard about the EEC and ACP, at these conferences of EEC, ACP he did articulate not Ugandan interest, but articulated interest of Africa, interest of the poor countries. It is for this reason that I described him as a pan-Africanist. Hon. Kagonyera did say that at one time one of our neighbouring countries brought a Motion at the International level to accuse Uganda of being behind the war that have been ragging in Rwanda, hon. Kafumbe Mukasa worked day and night to prepare a very strong case for Uganda and when he reached in the Conference tables were turned. Those that thought they were going to accuse Uganda and get Uganda black listed instead were the ones seen as the villain. This is the former regime that was in Rwanda. So, in many ways, the late hon. Kafumbe Mukasa was a nationalist and a Pan-Africanist.
 
As I conclude, I would like to add what hon. Kagonyera has just said. As a Doctor, as a close friend of the late Kafumbe, I would like to confirm that the late hon. Kafumbe Mukasa died of a natural death. It is true that even myself when I first met him on his sick bed, because I had heard the rumour of poisoning, because of the condition in which he was. I also thought my Friend must be going because of poisoning. Because the presentation was sudden he was yellow, he was bleeding from almost everywhere. The liver was being destroyed very fast. But as a doctor after I was with him, I took the consultant responsible aside and he give me the full explanation of his sickness. There was no trace of poisoning.
 
So, in my view, this country has lost a brilliant and committed Ugandan nationalist; a pan-Africanist. He has contributed in a small way to the economic recovery of this country. He has played a significant role in the foreign policy of this country. The response that I saw at Butambala at this burial, that is clear testimony that one only this House saw him at work, not only this House appreciated his deeds in this country, but even the population. I saw people from all corners of the country and it was very difficult really to get even where to place ones foot. Indeed if I had my own way, I would have given the late hon. Kafumbe Mukasa a State funeral. (Applause) I, therefore, support whole-heartedly the Motion moved by hon. Nkangi and I do believe that we shall pass this Motion unanimously. May the Almighty God rest his soul in peace. Thank you very much, Mr Chairman.
 
(Question put and agreed to.)
 
MOTION
 
(Debate continued.)
 
DEPUTY MINISTER OF LANDS, HOUSING AND URBAN DEVELOPMENT (Mr Mutebi Mulwanira): Thank you very much, Mr Chairman. I just wanted to conclude my contribution on this Bill which was cut short last time, when the House was adjourned. I was tracing the point that the Police must be given some protection from some whims of leadership; and when I touched the issue of other forces, security forces handling Police or mishandling Police I was informed by the hon. Minister that, that has been taken care of in the Bill. But as most of us know, that is knowledge by implication, we have been informed by the Minister that the Police has been covered, but not in this Bill.
 
Let me hope as a gentlemens agreement, that we have heard from the Minister we take precedence and the Police is not going to start complaining of abuse of office from other sectors of the security. While reading though this Bill in the schedule, I have seen more ambiguity in some of these articles. These are security forces, and there is behaviour and there are rules affecting the senior and junior officers. If you read at article 25, and 28, you will see clause 25, 28 in the schedule, page 53 and 54 one is talking of unlawful and unnecessary exercise of authority.
 
The next one talks of cowardice. The policeman will find himself with his hands tied up, you are told you must exact maximum power if you read 28 (b) cowards (e) if the Policeman fails to use utmost exaltation to carry out orders during riotous situation and civil disorder, he is a coward. At the time if this gentleman uses any unnecessary violence to any prisoner or any person with whom he maybe brought into contact in the execution of his duty he is unlawful.
 
So, here is the man you are sending to cool a riot. But you are telling him to be restricted on certain issues. I think these are laws and once we pass the Bills, these follows are put in category of having to ad here, that considered this Bill and gave us a report, I am sure in way or another they saw how the Police or the Police Force will be protected from practices. I beg to support the Bill.
 
MR E. KARUHANGA (Nyabushozi County, Mbarara): Thank you very much Mr Chairman. Before I turn my energies on the current Bill, I would like to say something very small on two things. I think Members must have heard an announcement postponing the Constituent Assembly for one week. I was very concerned and I found out that the reason is because, there is no money, because we have not passed the Budget and that Treasury is insisting that until the Budget is passed in the third week of September that is when they intend to release the funds for the CA Now, already by postponing this for one week, it means that the plan for finishing the CA on -(Interruption)
 
MR NKALUBO WASSWA: Point of information. Mr Chairman, I think the reason that the Budget is not passed, does not hold the water here, because I recall that this House has passed a Vote on Account which permits the Ministry of Finance to spend money for four months. The four months are not yet over, and now when you say the Budget is not passed, then that should be another issue, if it is inefficiency, let them tell us so. The Budget was approved for that period.
 
MR KARUHANGA: Mr Chairman, I am grateful to the hon. chairman of PACs information, hon. Nkalubo Wasswa but it is so the case that yes we did pass the Vote on Account, yes there should be money available to the CA yes the money for the CA should be coming form Consolidated Fund. Yes, one of the sections creating the CA made it an independent organ, yes we said that, even the Minister of Finance and Minister for Constitution Affairs can meet and extend the CA by finding the money without - which is not in the Budget. Yet in spite of all that Treasury is not releasing funds to enable the Constitution of Uganda to be written. (Interruption)
 
MR PINTO: Point of clarification. Mr Chairman, in view of the gravity of this matter as raised by hon. Karuhanga, would it not be in order to request the Prime Minister to stand up and tell the House.
 
MR KARUHANGA: It is very grateful if that could happen. (Interruption)
 
MR ADYEBO: Mr Chairman, what hon. Elly Karuhanga has raised is a matter of concern to all of us. But I would urge that you debate the Bill here present while you give time for the Minister of Finance and Economic Planning, maybe, to either give the statement here in person tomorrow, or at least, I would like to find out, so that we can give you substantial reasons without hurrying. Thank you.
 
MR KARUHANGA: I am most grateful to the advice accorded to me by the right hon. Prime Minister and Leader of Government Business. My concern was not that the Minister is not listening to it or thing like that. My concern was that time is of essence and time is passing and Members has come all the way from the districts, from their Constituency and are in Kampala now and they have heard to be convinced to go back and at the planned time which is so tight of passing the Constituency on 9th December is not going to take place; and that this is probably not the only thing I have seen before, I was in the Commission of Inquiry for mismanagement of Constitution Affairs, the Treasury refused to release funds we had to adjourn for a number of period. During the Odoki Commission, it was so convinced with the Treasury not putting up money they almost failed to meet the deadlines. This seems to be a habit and I appeal to the Leader of Government Business and the powers that be, to make sure that they clean up their act. (Applause)
 
Having said that, I want to turn briefly to the Bill. One, is the question I would like to ask in this Bill who policies the Police? Nobody polices the Police. We are just issuing powers to the Police; but who policies the Police? In the Army they have got the Military Police; why do we not have the Police, police? So that citizens who are disgruntled by the acts of the Police can go to this organ for a dress -(Interruption)
 
MR OBWANGOR: Point of information. Thank you, Mr Chairman, in all seriousness of the state in which the House is currently debating the legislation on the process that we have; my Friend the hon. Elly Karuhanga is a lawyer and a Member of this House, he clearly knows that under Statute 9, of 1989, by which NRM and NRC was ordained to extend their life.
 
Now, what is of substance to this, is that on that day I remember as it was yesterday some items were done by Government deliberately to put a country into interim arrangement so that the following must be done. Making of the Constitution, the current one, two, discussion of the Constitution for which my hon. colleague for Nyabushozi was told to go for a fortnight to consult your people, do you not love consulting your people, you want to make the constitution by yourself?
 
We want a peoples Constitution. Third, implementation of the Constitution. Fourth, Police Development. Police Development in the Bill before us now which we are trying now to do imperfectly. We should do it thoroughly, who is the policeman? The Policeman, therefore, is the organization to run the police. Now, the fifth one, therefore, is the organization to run the police. Now, the fifth one, the Prisons, sixth, enforcement of the Judiciary, we have heard this thing, and also rehabilitation and rehabilitation of everything. (Interruption)
 
MR KAWANGA: Point of order. Mr Chairman, is it in order for the hon. Informer on the Floor to make a whole speech instead of giving a short and precise information.
 
THE CHAIRMAN: Hon. Obwangor you are out of order. Hon. Karuhanga please proceed.
 
MR KARUHANGA: Thank you, Mr Chairman. I may now proceed -(Interjection) Thank you, Sir. Maybe the hon. Member from Ssese could have an answer for me about policing of the Police; and I would be grateful if any Member in this House can really say that in this Bill they have found the police of the police, because I looked for it and I would be very grateful to find it, because I looked for it and I would be very grateful to find it, and I am sure the country would be very grateful to find it; and it is possible that they did not have sufficient time and research to do that but I am very uncomfortable. Please, hon. Omara Atubo I will be very grateful -(Interruption)
 
THE CHAIRMAN: Order, order, please. Hon. Karuhanga, you are out of order to use up the power of the Chair.
 
MR KARUHANGA: I most profoundly apologise. (Interruption)
 
MR MAYENGO: Point of information. Mr Chairman, I would like to inform the hon. Member on the Floor that when this Bill was first introduced here, I took a moment to look at the history of the entire thing called Police all the way from the year 1285 up to the present. I noticed that they first started as watchmen; that is in 1285. But latter during the regime of king Henry the third, they thought that it was necessary to have somebody to police over the watchmen. So they created the constables. Therefore, what hon. Karuhanga is talking about is not completely new. It is something that probably should have been thought about.
 
DR TIBERONDWA: Point of information. Mr Chairman, I also did study this Bill very carefully, and I found out that there is nobody to polish the police and I have made a proposed Amendment which I am sure Members will receive or have received that we have Police Service Board, which deals with discipline of the Police, that is an Amendment which I have already suggested. It may not completely police them militarily but it would.
 
MR OMARA ATUBO: Point of information. I think the police is subject to meet three institutions. First of all you should know that the Police is a civilian Police Force, and so basically, first of all if a policeman commits on ordinary offence, he is subject to the ordinary law of the land, and he will be taken to court and charged, just like you and me. The second one is the routine discipline in the office, where a senior police officer disciplines a junior police officer.
 
But, I think if you look at the schedule, there is what we call, the Police Disciplinary Code of Conduct. I think this is quite substantial, because there we are talking about even disciplinary courts and appeal courts. You have the Police Council Appeals Court, you have the Original Police Court, and you have the subordinate Police Court.
 
So, within this structure of the Disciplinary Code of Conduct, you have these, but if a policeman misbehaves and he injures a civilian or he has conflict with a civilian, this one can also be handled within the Disciplinary Code of Conduct, or by just an ordinary court, basically a Police Force is a civilian force, and I think we have directed our mind to this in this way. Thank you, Mr Chairman.
 
MAJ. BUTIME: Point of information. Thank you very much Mr Chairman. Hon. Karuhanga is trying to put to task, this House to give him an answer which he knows. I think that is unfair, because hon. Karuhanga has been a Member of the Judicial Commission of Inquiry into mishandling of cases CID, Director of Public Prosecution etc, and he plus others with Justice Porter in their report, they discovered, that there was no Police to police, and that is why he is now taking to task, the whole House to give him an answer which he already has, and in their report, they recommend that a senior police officer be appointed to be in charge of a small section of well trained, very well disciplined Police officers who will be responsible to catch policemen who will be misbehaving, who will be indiscipline, who will be misbehaving, who will be indiscipline, who will be caught in misconduct etc, and when this report is adopted by the House,
 
I think it will be important and necessary and part of the Minister of Internal Affairs under the powers in this Bill, when it becomes a law to appoint that section within the Police which will be responsible for pursuing investigating, catching Policemen who ill be found misconducted themselves, misbehaviour, etc, that is the task, hon. Elly Karuhanga is trying to put to the House, when he should just give us that information in their commission.
 
MR ELLY KARUHANGA: Mr Chairman, I wish to thank the hon. Members who have given me information, each one of them individually and severally. But I also want to express how happy, I am that at last, in this House, we can hear a Minister saying that he is red a report of a Commissioner of Inquiry which normally is never read. (Laughter) 
 
I am very grateful about the fact, that the Minister of State for Internal Affairs has red the report in the section of the Police. The point that I am raising hon. Members is a very serious omission in this Bill. We found out during our investigations as Commissioner, that there was a very big problem, which is so fundamental, and which is so intrinsic in the Police Force. The Police are friends. When they act, they act in unison collectively and one does not want to sell the other for rainy day, when he too or she too makes a mistake. It is part and parcel of human nature and yet these are people that you are arming with instruments of cohesion. These are people whom you are arming with powers of arrest.
 
I will tell you a little story about one day, when a thief stole large sums of money, and the RCs caught him around the tax-park and brought him to the Police, and the Police sat down at the Central Police and shared out the spoils, with the people who had reported in the evening duty, and money was distributed to various places in Nsambya Barracks, until on Policeman came who had left this money there the exhibit, it was not there, and it had taken about a week chasing after these people; yes, some money was picked up from some under the mattress, others in bars, others all over the place.
 
But surprisingly, up to today as we speak, nobody has ever been brought in the Police for disciplining, because the information was covered up. We discovered this in that Commission and when we tried to find out, how such a colossal amount of unfortunate information, can really be kept and covered up to the level that the senior policeman is the highest top man you are giving so much power, does not know, we find out that there is an intrinsic problem within the force. We found it was necessary for the legislators to think seriously about this omission, this lacuna, and I was hoping that the Minister having red, that report, it would have been the first one not to be part of the collaborative forces, but would have wanted to assist himself by proposing the Amendment -(Interruption)
 
PROF. KANYEIHAMBA: Point of information. Thank you, Mr Chairman. I am grateful for allowing me to make a point of information, as you will remember, I was the person as responsible for dealing with this Bill by moving a Motion that should be studied by the Select Committee, and for me I am satisfied, that there is adequate provision for polishing the Police.
 
As hon. Omara Atubo had already said, there is a very elaborate Code of Behaviour and discipline, which is contained in the Schedule of this Act. If you Karuhanga, looks at clause 45, Section 45, it provides that; There shall be a Disciplinary Code of Conduct which shall be the basis of disciplinary control of all Police Officer and other persons employed in the force under this Statute. I think it is very important, and that hon. Karuhanga has pointed out that the Police are friends and are likely to condone the offenses of other fellow officers. If that be the case, then I think, that instead of being involving in a great deal of debate, we should make specific proposals that this Code of Conduct and disciplinary action should be polished by, perhaps civilians as he is thinking rather than the Police themselves, I think it would help this House if we discussed how this code of conduct ought to be enforced rather than indulge in general debate, I thank you, Sir.
 
CAPT. BABU: Point of information. Mr Chairman, thank you very much. I think, The information I have to give to the hon. Member who is on the Floor, is that, he is right on the Police - because in countries where the Police concept started, which is like Britain, for example, we had several commissions in the Police and they have found out that the Police have extra powers that must be curbed and to do that, you need another body within the Police to do so. In fact, most of these countries, thee members who belong to that force are called member of the Internal Affairs, and this has happened even in America, it has happened in Britain, where they have the real police which is supposedly the oldest in the world.
 
Now, the most important thing here is to realise that link between policemen. In some countries, it is even a cult, and that cult must be supervised because if you do not supervise it, you might lose before the case gets to court. Therefore, I would like to request this House, to listen very carefully to what the hon. Member is saying that as we develop, and we become a little bit more peaceful we are going to need a very effective Police and that Police must be checked at all times. Thank you very much.
 
MR LATIGO OLAL: Point of clarification. Mr Chairman, thank you for giving me this opportunity. I would like to accept that this is a very important part of the Police, situation we are dealing with. Now, I would like to be clear to me, so that I may take proper view on the Police or on the board - somebody who is supposed to discipline.
 
I came this morning, from Kyoga, through Nakasongola, and on the road, I found two fat policemen on the pikipikis, I was in a pick-up, carrying the fish, I sat in front, they stopped the pick up, the pick up men stopped and, I was in front, and one person was at the back of the pick up, carrying fish, then the policemen came, another one stood there this other one in the collectively responsibility you are talking about asked, do you not know the contract and the driver said but it is Friday, today is a Tuesday, and then the policeman rebelled and then the gentleman pulled out Shs1,000, he took to them counted, then the policeman said you are joking, I will go to the books, then he throw it back, so he went to his pikipikis, open the file and he started by writing and the driver stood up, hands in the pocket and added to that, and books were back into the pikipiki.  
 
Now, the clarification, who would then discipline the people. Is it the Police, hon. Karuhanga is proposing or the committee, which is going to sit up in this Parliamentary Building somewhere? I would like me to be clarified, so that I can deliberate on this and decide whether I have police policy or just scrap the board, or scrap the police traffic officers. Thank you, Mr Chairman.
 
MR KARUHANGA: I want to thank hon. Latigo Olal for vividly portraying to you, the problem, I did not want to say, because I had no direct evidence like he had this morning, which is the freshest evidence we have. Now, I want to appeal to hon. Members who are on the Sectoral Committee, not to try and defend their work as if my comment is attaching them for not having seen this point, far from it. It is just that I am raising this point, because we have researched it, when we were looking at the mismanagement of criminal cases and we made a recommendation, and we know that that report has not reached the Members of this House. We know that you have not had the opportunity to look at it, but I am grateful that the Minister has publicly explained it to you.
 
There is a definite need for us to set up an institution that the people will fear to go to answer, that is not part of it is part of the organisation, but it is under the Minister and is capable of counter balancing. It is not the disciplinary committee that is envisaged in 45, that is the routine discipline that you have in any organisation, administrative nature, we are talking about individuals, private citizens who come and confront a system and a system blocks them, and they have nowhere to go, and if they try to go anywhere the Police has all what with all, you have armed it, how many pages, 57, everything here, the individuals cannot move! We are moving to a situation where we want to instill the rural of law in our country. The principle agents who were the establishment of the rule of law in this country will be this organisation you are setting up, they are the implementers.
 
Please find a place, Mr Minister; come up with an amendment, not from the Back Benchers, well researched, discuss at Cabinet level and set it up so that we know that the Police has something to fear, not the Ministers powers. He wants this in his proposal, please -(Interruption)
 
MAJ. BUTIME: Point of information. I think Mr Chairman, hon. Karuhanga is really labouring on something on which we have actually agreed. I said that after the Justice Porters report has been published and adopted by Government, we will use the law here, to form a section within the CID, which will be in charge of investigating - you cannot put it anywhere else - which will be in charge of investigating following up and gathering intelligence information about the police. Even the military intelligence, which hon. Karuhanga started with, which he quoted in the law, you do not find there military intelligence - okay, therefore, you cannot find what hon. Karuhanga wants, and I have assured him that, that kind of section will be formed, and we shall find a place somewhere, where it can be accommodated. So, I really do not think that, he should labour much on that particular point.
 
CAPT GASATURA: Point of information. Mr Chairman, just supplementary to the Ministers information. The hon. Minister has already got a few grey hairs on his head, a few years from now, I imagine, he will be more with peasants of this country and may face himself fighting the system he set up. It is not yet out of our minds, a few attorney generals some years back, I think by Grace Ibingira who drafted certain laws that kept him behind bars for a while. Those with grey hairs, especially in Civil Service have common physiologies, we are working on it, or something like that mechanism have been set up.
 
This morning we read in the papers the Commissioners of the Constituent Assembly who lost a case together with his returning officer in a certain district, Mbale. I believe, lost a case to somebody and now the same commissioner has appointed the same DES returning officer and has assured the country and the people of Mbale, that mechanism by the commissioner and the DES are in place to protect them. I beg the Minister to give all diligence to the wisdom being advanced by hon. Members that, perhaps, more time and thinking be put into this Bill. Thank you, Mr Chairman.
 
MR KATUREEBE: Point of clarification. Thank you, Mr Chairman. Like hon. Karuhanga, I have had occasion to serve on a Commission of Inquiry, not only into the DPPs Department, but also in the administration of justice as a whole in 1986. I am nearly persuaded by his suggestion. But he started off by saying, that the police have friends within the police. That if you got one policeman, it may protect another one, within the Police, a senior policeman may protect another because he is his workmate, they are friends and so on. Now, this Police is trying to suggest where will it be drawn from? Are the members of that police not going to be members of the Police Force who will also have friends within the Police Force, so that we may be back to square one. Can you clarify for me on this point?
 
THE CHAIRMAN: Order, Please.
 
REV. ONGORA ATWAI: Point of order. Is it in order, Mr Chairman, for the hon. Member of this House to appear to be abusing the Chair and be allowed continue sitting in this House, and that is hon. Obwangor.
 
THE CHAIRMAN: Order, please. I think hon. Obwangor has realised the mistake he has done and he has sat down. Hon. Karuhanga, please go ahead.
 
 MR KARUHANGA: Mr Chairman, I think now, from reading the point, it seems to me that, the House and the Minister are agreed that there is a nee to do something about this. It seems to me also, that the Minister is thinking that he can do it administratively. I would like to urge him to set up an institution to handle this by law, so that the country knows that there is a place they can run to. I think what actually is required is a fundamental amendment which would act in section five, which details out the police powers, and duties. May be another section but this an area where I think this if it passes this law as it is without addressing it, would be doing this country, no good. The second point, in article five -(Interruption)
 
THE CHAIRMAN: Order, please.
 
MR KARUHANGA: In Article 5, there is something - I do not want to dwell on this because it might also excite problems. Since I also got it from the information I had when I was in the commission. This is the question for the special branch of the police. The special branch of the police has the same powers and obligations as ISO, they actually carry out the same job. In the law which sets up the whole police act, which sets up the special branch. It gives it powers that we also in this House, for those who were in this House before it was expanded and given to ISO. I there not a conflict - do these two organisations not crash? Who wins when they crash? Can we save the situation? Can this house save the situation in the Police Act? (Interruption)
 
MR PINTO: Point of information. Mr Chairman, earlier on, hon. Karuhanga was talking about who police is. Police would need to be possible in this case that, one organisation is policing the other. (Laughter)
 
MR KARUHANGA: That would be alright; that would be absolutely in order if the law we set up - we said so, but not when we give them the same powers.
 
THE CHAIRMAN: Please, wind up your contribution.
 
MR KARUHANGA: I want to make a small comment about the matter that has come up in circulation, that we postpone this debate because the CA is debating a constitution. I think this is very dangerous, I think I do not want to associate myself with the Mover or the intended move of that Motion. So, the point is that, in the draft constitution, the chapters relevant -(Interruption)
 
PROF. KANYEIHAMBA: Point of order. Mr Chairman, is it in order for the hon. Elly Karuhanga to debate a point which has not been formerly placed before this House, and which maybe, withdrawn by whoever has circulated it. Is he in order?
 
THE CHAIRMAN: Well, the hon. Member made mere touch on the matter; go ahead but wind up, please.
 
MR KARUHANGA: In any case, the information came to me on papers which this House has bought, or on ink which this House has bought and has been circulated officially to me, and I do not want to take the Floor again to speak about it, so why not - the point is that, the proposals in the draft constitution are not law. Secondly, there are two and I am sure what we need in the Constitution, is to describe in one or two particles, the powers of the police, and then the rest should be done here where it should belong. So, anybody trying to postpone this day is putting the cart before the horse. Let us get on without work, and let us give the people a good Police Force.
 
I want to thank the Sectoral Committee of Legal and Security for having done such a surgery, from the Bill which had been rushed here, and I want also to thank the Minister for having been kind enough to accept that surgery in spite of the alterations that took place in the news papers about our act of throwing the first Bill out. I thank him for democratic discipline, which he has now started to enjoy. (Laughter) And with that, Mr Chairman, I thank you.
 
MR KATUREEEBE (Bunyaruguru County, Bushenyi): Thank you, Mr Chairman for permitting me to say a few words on this Bill. I beg to support the Bill. First of all, we must ask ourselves why is our police force not performing to the standards that we want it to perform? Is it because the existing law is inadequate? Or is it because that there is something that is very wrong that makes our police perform below the required standards?
 
I have had close relationship with the Police, I worked in the Attorney Generals Chambers for 8 years, I have worked with the Police, I have been a private practitioner, I have worked with the Police, no matter how much money you are going to pay a State Attorney to make him happy, he is a useless state attorney if he is going to go to court, with an investigated case and it is the Police who have to do the ground work.
 
Therefore, in so far as the Police remained getting their peanuts, living in their condemned houses, sometimes with torn uniforms, I have seen policeman report at our residences; you find a man coming to report for night duty he does not even have an overcoat; as long as you have that type of police, no matter how beautiful the provisions are within the law, you are going to have an inefficient Police. I think these are the issues we must address ourselves to. We must give the Police self-respect. (Interruption)
 
MRS WEKIYA: Point of information. Thank you very much, Mr Chairman. In addition to what the hon. Deputy Minister for Health is saying, I would like to inform this House that, even the tools that the police are using are very poor, they even do not have transport. Just two weeks ago, I met Police chasing a vehicle, which had overrun a person, on bicycles. (Laughter) When they saw me, they stopped me, and asked me to flow the other vehicle, so they abandoned their bicycles and I had to give them a lift in my car. Of course, I did not drive as fast, as the other man who was running away. So, I just wanted to give that information to add on to what the hon. Minister was saying to this House. Thank you, very much.
 
MR WANENDEYA: Point of information. Thank you very much, Mr Chairman. May I inform the hon. Member on the Floor that, it is vital to pay the police very well because without paying them very well; it is we to blame. Most countries in the world rely on Police for security and peace in their countries. Countries like Switzerland, do not even have an army. But what I would like the police to know, is that, they cannot go on not prosecuting people who have swindled large sums of money. So, in order for them to be efficient, they should really assist us so that we can pay them very well. Thank you.
 
MR KATUREEBE: Mr Chairman, I think the point being made by hon. Wenendeya is exactly what I am trying to say. The police must be given the equipment to do their job. If you do not have handwriting experts, you do not have experts, how do you expect this policeman to go and investigate embezzlement cases, where he needs to have those experts?
 
We must emphasize further training in the Police in various fields; it is not every policeman on the street that, go and investigate a case of embezzlement. You need special trained Police who can go and do those things. You are not going to get a policeman to investigate a murder case and take it to the DPP to persecute. If he arises on the sine of the crime a week after the body was removed. Because he had no transport to get there. These are things we must address our minds on. And I am saying it in parliament here because we are the ones who make the appropriations. We are the ones who make the appropriations and it is very important we start thinking seriously about the Police Force that is supposed to protect our lives and prevent crime.
 
I want to touch briefly on this issue of the police; policing police. I rose for a clarification and it was not given to me. But my own view is, if a citizen is aggrieved, by action of a policeman, or indeed any member of government, be it a Minister, a Member of Parliament, an army; there should be an independent body and with full powers to whom I should go and make a report, who has caused this on that or his bosses, and make them answer. But for me to go and report to an institution of the same institution, maybe counter productive. We need to have in place a strengthened ombudsman; we have now the Inspector General of Police, but I think it is of Government. But I think the institution has not been strengthened, we need an ombudsman that I can go and complain about of any state agency, and then that organ should have sufficient powers to summon and even persecute if need be.
 
Hon. Latigo raised a question where he witnessed some two people committing an offence. I did not want to say them, but I can tell him how, that under the law, even a private citizen has powers to arrest where you think and you have reasons to believe that, an offence has been committed or is about to be committed. (Interruption)
 
THE CHAIRMAN: Order, hon. Members.
 
MR KARUHANGA: Point of information. Mr Chairman, I wish to inform the hon. Minister on the Floor that in fact the example he is giving about hon. Latigo is the same reason why we must have an organisation within by policemen to take care of the police, and hon. Latigo much has he had power in his hands to arrest those two fat policemen who had motor bicycles and were armed, he could do nothing about it. Absolutely, nothing about it, I think that the hon. Minister now, may be moved from thinking like that. But if he was a common man, he would realise that, it is very difficult to arrest a policeman if you are not minister.
 
If I can just give information, on another point which he raised that he did not get information when I was making the contribution on a separate ombudsman or somebody like that. What actually we need is an organisation of highly skilled, well trained professional policemen, who have lived through the ranks, who know the system, who have got the standing orders of police by their finger tips, who know exactly what to do - are highly trained, well disciplined and they constitute on organisation and the set up is well funded, and recognised by this House. So that, when one act is done, you go to these policemen and invite one policeman, and say, did you write WT 16, because these are the police technical things that they use.
 
THE CHAIRMAN: Order, please hon. Member. I think your point of information is a little bit too long.
 
MR KARUHANGA: Sorry to take long. But the point is that, if you remove the police organisation, it is a special organisation. To think that you can equate it when members of Parliament are complaining of way you want to handle the Police, is completely to misread question at hand.
 
THE CHAIRMAN: Hon. Katureebe, please go ahead with your contribution.
 
MR KATUREEBE: Thank you very much, Mr Chairman. I want to assure hon. Karuhanga, that in my long experience, dealing with cases, I have taken many cases to court, representing private citizens, who so fit to take government to court on actions of the Police, so it is not far fetched. But in any case, this Police, police, it has got to come from the main body of the entire Police Force. You are not going to have a small disciplined police, Police; if the rest of the body is weak so that is why I started by the first point. Let us first of all have a sufficiently motivated Police Force. If you have that Force, I see sufficient provisions within this Bill, for the disciplining of police officers. Leaving the citizen powers, even to take the government to court where is aggrieved by the actions of an individual policeman. That is the point I want to make.
 
I want to end by a contribution, by appealing to Members. Let us give respect to our Police. I know they make mistakes, but not all do that. It is not the entire Force that is corrupt; that are thieves; and that are inefficient. Some of these policemen are trying their best under very difficult circumstances. (Applause) And indeed, in the older days, as part of motivating the Police, there used to be such things as even as commendations. When a policeman has done a good job, he had investigated the case very well, and he would get a letter of recommendation. The man puts it in his sitting room and it is a motivation, not necessary in money terms, we would like to see those sort of things reinstated within the police force.
 
Let us not simply condemn them, because if you do not know the word thank you, and the more often the man feels that, no matter what he does, he is going to be condemned as corrupt anyway. And he will not see any reason why be should try to do anything good. Thank you, very much Mr Chairman.
 
MISS NAMUYANGU (Youth Representative, Eastern): Thank you very much, Mr Chairman. I stand to support the Bill, and I will start by thanking the Minister for Internal Affairs and the Committee for Legal Affairs for coming up with such a comprehensive documents. I have some observations to make on this Bill. The first one is on page 23 paragraph 31 Section 2. Whereby, if a person is convicted and the police officer feels like taking a photograph of that, particular victim and then the victim prevents such an act taking place, is reliable to a fine to 200/= shillings. I believe we are just provoking the offenders to do such bad acts because really 200/- shillings as a fine, I do not think it is really - at least imprisonment of one month. (Interruption)
 
MAJ. BUTIME: Point of information. Thank you very much, Mr Chairman. I would like to inform the hon. Member on the Floor that, that particular sub-clause in our amendment of the Legal and Sectoral Committee has been taken care of, and the proposal is 50,000 shillings not 200 shillings.
 
MISS NAMUYANGU: Thank you hon. Minister. My next observation is on page 22, paragraph 29, Section 2. Whereby they talk of a person who attempts to commit an offence, will be treated in the same way as a person who commits an offence. Honestly, I see that, at least there would be some punishments. Because I would imagine, if somebody attempts to steal, and he does not steal, then somebody steals, and they are really liable to the same punishments, I do not really see the logic in this.
 
The next observation is on page 18; page 18 paragraph (2) Section (a), whereby the Police officers are being given permission or chance to carry out search without a warrant, and here they are saying they can do it any time of the days even at night. I believe here we are putting some people on a risk. Because some people might come up in disguise of police uniform, there is no way you can identify himself, and he can come and loot the local people because I have seen this happen when the search is taken during the day, some policemen end up taking peoples property. I have seen it happening at least in some places whereby some policemen have ended up taking radio cassettes, some peoples property actually.
 
Another observation is on page 19, paragraph 25 Section 3. This one talks of, if a person is detained under this section, and is not a resident of Uganda, as referred to in sub-section (2), he may be secured by a surety who is a resident of Uganda. But my worry is, supposing this person fails to get surety who is a resident of Uganda. Because of recent I was reading in a newspaper whereby a certain Rwandese was arrested in Kamuli District, and he has been retained in prison for so long. If for instance, in this case, if such a person does not get a surety who is a resident of Uganda, what provision has been put there?
 
I want to go on and talk about something on page 9 paragraph 2. This one talks of the police officers being allowed to carry the arms when they are going for duty, it is on page 9, paragraph 5 Section (2). The reason why I am bringing in this issue is that many times, we have lost lives whereby even when in some institutions they are peaceful demonstrations the policemen move out or are allowed to go out with live ammunition, and when they are really maintaining peace, they easily loss their heads and they end up shooting students. I will quote an example of Masaba High School whereby a student was killed and Makerere University that was in 1990. (Interruption)
 
CAPT. BABU: Point of information. Mr Chairman, the information I have for the hon. Member in the same vain, we lost two policemen because they did not carry arms. I just want to inform the hon. Member that when you start picking these little episodes that happen, you find that sometimes lose and sometimes you do not. Now we did lose our two policemen even I think three not two and, I would like to say, therefore, when one is arguing this point you must look at all angles and the only time when the Police shoot the armed, is because the people he is trying to fight are also armed. Thank you very much.
 
MISS WEKIYA: I thank you very much for that information hon. Member. Mr Chairman, I want to wind up by putting these forward to this hon. House. The issue of policemen not being facilitated, more so in terms of transport, has brought a high degree of cost sharing in this country. I have observed whereby if somebody is a victim of circumstance, may be has been looted, and he report such a case to police, first and foremost the policeman will say give me transport, and if transport is provided and an arrest is made, this particular person is asked to transport the prisoner, and even to provide food. So, some people have even sat down they say, once you go to police and report this, definitely you going to yield more. So the poor are really being deprived off their rights.
 
I want lastly, to say something about the issue of police to police. I have noted this with concern the police officers, the regional police officers have given some authority or permission to the drivers who have vehicles that are really in mechanical conditions. So, the police officers at the lower ranks cannot carry out their duties because when they arrest such drivers, the drive just gets a letter from the regional police officer and he has nothing to do, the driver has to continue. So, I do not know how we are going to handle such cases.
 
Lastly, I want to seek clarification from the hon. Minister as to whether this business of the three people per seat in the min-buses has a particular area where it has to operate. Because in some areas up country we are sitting five people in a tax and I was surprised one time to find that a tax where I was traveling in, four people were seated in front and here was a traffic officer who also wanted a lift and he had to squeeze himself in front, Sir. Mr Chairman, I beg to move. Thank you, Sir.
 
ADJOURNMENT
 
 
THE CHAIRMAN: Hon. Members as the Debate continues, if you intend to move amendments, please, direct the amendment to the chairman of the Sectoral Committee for further considerations.
 
(The Council at 5.00 p.m. and adjourned until Wednesday, 17 August 1994 at 2.30 p.m.)
 



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